Burnham refuses to trade social security for defence in PMQs
At PMQs, Andy Burnham refused to choose between defence and welfare, setting a 3.5% target by 2035 while opposing Conservative plans for £4bn housing benefit cuts.
The Full Story
A plain summary built from the channels that reported this story.
The political battle over how to fund the UK's armed forces intensified at Prime Minister's Questions, as Andy Burnham rejected the Conservative argument that defence spending must be prioritised over welfare. The Prime Minister said national security could not come at the expense of social security, insisting the government would not be forced to choose between the two.
Burnham reaffirmed the government's commitment to reach 3.5% of GDP on defence by 2035, but declined to give a date for reaching the interim target of 3%, saying a plan would be set out at the spending review next year. The Conservative leader, Kemi Badenoch, seized on this hesitation, accusing the Prime Minister of being "clearly unwilling" to fund defence. She set out her party's fully costed proposal to reach 3% by 2030, funded by £10 billion of cuts to welfare, including £4 billion from housing benefit and £3.1 billion from restoring the two-child benefit cap.
The exchange highlighted the central fiscal dilemma facing the government. The new chancellor, John Healey, resigned from the previous government in the summer when it refused to commit to a 3% target, but as chancellor he has said fiscal discipline is his first priority and has not promised to find the money in the October budget. This has led critics to accuse him of hypocrisy, while others argue he is simply being realistic about the constraints of the public finances.
During the debate, Badenoch said Healey's resignation letter made clear the need to reach 3%, but now that he is in the Treasury he is "not going to do it in the budget". She challenged the government to adopt the Conservative plan. Burnham, in response, insisted the country needed both strong armed forces and a resilient society, and that crude cuts to welfare would undermine national security, not strengthen it.
The political standoff is likely to remain a defining issue for the government as it prepares its first budget in late October. Defence secretaries and senior military figures have warned of rising threats from Russia, Iran and other states, while welfare spending has grown to a level many economists say is unsustainable. The government has said it will bring down the welfare bill by helping more people into work, but has rejected the idea of cutting benefits to pay for defence, setting the stage for a prolonged confrontation with the Conservatives.
On screen
Stills are sampled automatically at 60-second intervals. Where shown, the still is the nearest available frame from the relevant broadcast segment and is included to show what was on screen during that part of the broadcast. A still may not correspond to the exact second of a quoted phrase.
Key Claims
Claims reported during this story's coverage, grouped by how many channels reported each one. Select a dot to see the source excerpt.
| Claim |  |  |  |  |  |  |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Widely reported · 5 or more of 6 channels | ||||||
| Badenoch pledged to reach the NATO target of 3% of GDP on defence by 2030 with a £10 billion increase. | Not reported by Channel 4 | Reported by GB News | ||||
| Reported by a few · 2–4 channels | ||||||
| Conservative plans to fund defence include welfare cuts, such as re-imposing the two-child benefit cap and restricting housing benefit. | Reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Reported by GB News | Reported by Sky News |
| Healey resigned as defence secretary in June, partly because the government would not commit to a date for reaching 3% of GDP on defence. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Reported by Channel 4 | Reported by Sky News | |
| The budget is expected on October 28th, but Healey is not expected to find money for defence or social care reform in it. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Reported by BBC Two | Reported by GB News | Reported by Sky News | |
| Andy Burnham said national security cannot come at the expense of social security. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by Sky News | ||
| Healey said fiscal discipline is his first priority and the bedrock of economic stability. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Reported by Channel 4 | Reported by GB News | |
| A pathway to 3% defence spending will be set out at the 2027 spending review. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Reported by GB News | Reported by Sky News |
| Badenoch accused Andy Burnham of delaying the defence plan. | Reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Healey denied there was a shift in his principles on defence spending. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Reported by Sky News | |
| Kemi Badenoch accused Andy Burnham of being unwilling to fund defence. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Reported by BBC One | Reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News |
| The government has increased defence spending, with reported rises of £15bn and the largest increase since the 1980s. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Reported by GB News | Reported by Sky News |
| The government increased defence spending to about 2.6% of GDP. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Reported by Sky News | |
| The plan includes £4 billion in savings from housing benefit through social housing reforms. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | ||
| The UK has been attacked by hostile hackers this summer. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Reported by GB News | Reported by Sky News |
| Only on one channel | ||||||
| A Conservative critic said John Healey will not deliver 3% defence spending in the budget. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News |
| A further £3.1 billion will be saved by re-imposing the two-child benefit cap scrapped by Labour. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | |
| Andrew Griffith said he was not responsible for the mini-budget because he was a junior minister at the time. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Andy Burnham appointed John Healey as Chancellor because of his strong commitment to raising defence spending. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Andy Burnham has pivoted from Keir Starmer's position on UK bases being used for offensive actions. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Reported by Sky News |
| Andy Burnham signalled that the 3% defence spending target may be reached by 2035. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Argentine President Javier Milei will deliver a national address on the Falklands, calling it a sacred cause. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | |
| Badenoch argued that defence is the first duty and economic security depends on it. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Reported by Sky News |
| Badenoch criticised the Prime Minister for failing to commit to the 3% defence spending target by 2030. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Badenoch's welfare spending figure includes the state pension, so the claim that one in three pounds is spent on welfare is overstated. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Burnham said the government would set out a plan to reach 3.5% of GDP on defence by 2035 at the spending review. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Conservative plans include saving £200m by not going ahead with the Chagos deal. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Conservatives accused John Healey of not following through on a resignation pledge. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News |
| Defence Secretary Wes Streeting urged the opposition not to manufacture division on defence. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | |
| Defence spending poses a political challenge for the government, attributed partly to John Healey's past resignation. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Reported by Sky News |
| GB News argued that Healey's resignation made him a hypocrite as chancellor. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by Sky News | |
| GB News did not report John Healey's resignation or any defence spending dispute in the transcript. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News |
| Griffith said he set out fully costed plans to fund defence within days of becoming shadow chancellor. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Griffith said Reform's £100 billion savings plan does not add up because it banks on lower interest rates. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Healey and Burnham are both determined to stick within fiscal rules while pursuing a longer-term vision of growth. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | |
| Healey described the government as a continuity of the previous Labour administration. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | |
| Healey said the government is evolving council tax by introducing a top band for extremely valuable properties. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | |
| Healey said the summer savings scheme saved families over £4 million. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | |
| Kemi Badenoch described her proposed welfare cuts as 'common sense' rather than austerity. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Reported by Sky News |
| Kemi Badenoch said Burnham is unwilling to fund defence without cutting welfare. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News |
| Kemi Badenoch said John Healey resigned because Labour was not keeping the country safe. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Reported by Sky News |
| Kemi Badenoch said welfare spending accounts for one in every three pounds and that the country has become addicted to it. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Labour argued that tax avoidance could fund the increase in defence spending. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News |
| Labour MP Emma Lewell-Buck argued that tackling tax avoidance could raise nearly £10bn. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| Lee Anderson said the welfare bill is over £333 billion and that many young people are not working. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by Sky News | |
| The Conservative defence plan is fully costed and includes removing housing benefit and the VAT exemption for Motability. | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| The Conservatives previously cut defence spending to 1.9% of GDP. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by Sky News | |
| The Conservatives set out a plan for billions of welfare cuts to fund defence, aiming for 3.5% of GDP on defence by 2035. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| The government has repeatedly delayed its defence investment plan. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
| The government said defence spending will reach 2.7% of GDP by next year. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | |
| The government's 3% defence spending pledge has been pushed back to next spring. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC One | Not reported by BBC Two | Reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News |
| The Prime Minister said the scheme would create levels of homelessness the country has never seen before. | Not reported by Channel 5 | Not reported by BBC Two | Not reported by Channel 4 | Not reported by GB News | Not reported by Sky News | |
Channel Perspectives
What each channel focused on, with key quotes.
Sky News focused on the tension between Andy Burnham's ambitious spending promises and the new Chancellor John Healey's insistence on fiscal discipline, using a long interview with Healey to probe whether the government can fund defence without cutting welfare. They also gave prominent airtime to Kemi Badenoch's fully costed alternative.
- “First priority for me, first duty, I would say, for any chancellor is fiscal discipline.”
- “Defence of the realm is the first duty of government, and that is why I announced how we're going to get to 3% of GDP by 2030 today.”
- “John Healey resigned from Keir Starmer's government, saying Labour were not keeping the country safe.”
GB News was strongly critical of Andy Burnham, portraying his PMQs line as putting welfare ahead of national security. They repeatedly attacked John Healey as a hypocrite and argued that welfare cuts are necessary to fund defence, with hosts using emotive language to condemn the government's stance.
- “It's a disgrace. He lost all credibility.”
- “He's a candyfloss prime minister.”
- “Yes, we do everything to support our national security, but it can't come at the expense of social security.”
Channel 4 focused on the government's defence spending plans being under scrutiny, noting that the 3% target has been pushed back to next spring. They highlighted Conservative criticism of Healey's reversal and the political pressure on the government to clarify its position.
- “John Healey, when he was Defence Secretary and I was his Shadow at the time, resigned with a letter saying the government needs to go to 3%. Well, he's now Chancellor of the Exchequer and he's not going to do it in the budget.”
BBC TWO's Politics Live provided a balanced panel discussion, giving both parties a platform to explain their positions. The focus was on the policy mechanics of funding defence, with Mark Francois defending the Conservative plan and Emma Lewell-Buck arguing that tax avoidance could fund defence instead of welfare cuts.
- “Finding the money to pay for defence means making tough choices. It means difficult trade-offs, something Andy Burnham is reluctant to do.”
- “The main way is by restricting spending on welfare. That includes re-imposing the two child benefit cap.”
BBC ONE West presented the PMQs exchange as a clear political dividing line, reporting Burnham's refusal to choose between defence and welfare and Badenoch's insistence on cutting housing benefit to fund defence. They also noted the warning that the Conservative plans could increase homelessness.
- “Yes, we do everything to support our national security, but it can't come at the expense of social security.”
- “He is clearly unwilling. We need to fund our defence, not spend all of our money on welfare.”
5 News covered Kemi Badenoch's press conference in detail, presenting her plan to reach 3% by 2030 as a fully costed alternative to the government's approach. They also noted the political timing, with the announcement coming as President Macron visited London.
- “We have now completed all work to get to 3%. And today, my team have set out our plan to remove housing benefit and remove the VAT exemption for motability, alongside savings from the disastrous Chagos deal and repurposing money from the British business bank into defence, we will be able to hit that 3% target.”
Broadcast Timeline
News broadcasts tracked for this story, in time order.